Lotus Sutra, Lecture No. II-12

Shunryu Suzuki Transcript

October 1968

This—this sutra is divided in two parts. And one is so-called-it Shakumon. Shakumon means—in the first part, we should understand the oneness of the—the oneness of the duality. Here we should understand aspect of being and aspect of non-being; aspect of subjective and objective. A Buddha and sentient being are one, not different.

This sutra put emphasis on more—rather than emptiness, but forms, you know, forms. So, for this reason, how we understand the absolute reality in term of difference—differentiated, objective world, and how we live—we should live Buddha's life which is one.

The last—the second part is how we should appreciate Buddha as a source of our life. Through our life we should appreciate Dharmakaya Buddha. When we appreciate Dharmakaya Buddha, means that Sambhogakaya Buddha.

So, it is—the first part is way upward, and second part is way downward. Starting from Buddha nature, you know, feeling with the appreciation of Buddha nature, we should find out a meaning of our life.

And so, various problems we have in our life, in term of duality: good and bad, life and death. It’s—it's good devices of Buddha to show us the oneness of good and bad, right and wrong, subjective world and objective world.

Buddhism—so, in this sense, through and through, double structure: oneness and duality, and upward and downward. The first part, duality—first part of the sutra is also dualistic, subjectivity and objectivity, Buddha and sentient being, and the first principle and second principle, oneness of the second principle and the first principle.

And in this way, we will understand what is our life, from two viewpoint. When we understand our life from two, or viewpoint, we say, “Things as it is.” Shoho Jisso. First part is about Shoho Jisso, things as it is. And the second part is about eternal. Put Buddha in—as a eternal life, in which we are included. So, to live in this world is to appreciate Buddha's eternal life, which continues forever. And this is for Bodhisattva's path.

Sambhogakaya Buddha and Nirmanakaya Buddha—Nirmanakaya Buddha. Trikaya, Sambhogakaya—Sambhogakaya Buddha is, you know, a bridge to the Dharmakaya Buddha, and Nirmanakaya Buddha. If we have just two Nirma—Sambo—Nirmanakaya Buddha, and Dharmakaya Buddha, truth and phenomenal world—absolute world or phenomenal world, or Dharma body and Form body, we cannot accept the teaching.

You know, Nirmanakaya Buddha is very important. As I explained, Nirmanakaya Buddha appeared, you know, for the first time from after Buddha passed away. Buddha was understood as a Nirmanakaya Buddha. Sambhogakaya Buddha.

And Sambhogakaya Buddha, you know, itself was—is Dharmakaya Buddha. So Sambhogakaya Buddha, you know, is actually—actually we experienced Buddha— actually we experienced. And when we experienced Nirma—Sambhogakaya Buddha, we—in—in contrast with historical Buddha, we had the idea of Dharmakaya Buddha. So Dharmakaya Buddha is more—not complete idea, but more idea of truth.

So, that which is important is Sambhogakaya Buddha. Sambhogakaya Buddha—closely related to our practice, to our everyday life. This idea originated from the idea how—how Buddha attained enlightenment, how he acquired that kind of result, or boundless merit and virtue and wisdom. That is actually Sambhogakaya Buddha. When we have Sambhogakaya Buddha, and Nirmanakaya Buddha, we have too Dharmakaya, idea of Dharmakaya Buddha.

In China—in China, there were—there were a kind of dispute, you know, discussion. Trikaya Buddha, and Dharmakaya Buddha, Sambhogakaya Buddha, Nirmanakaya Buddha, and to analyze Nirmanakaya Buddha in two: Nirmanakaya Buddha and Sambhogakaya Buddha. To open, to analyze Nirmanakaya Buddha in two, we will have idea of Sambhogakaya Buddha and Nirmanakaya Buddha, historical Buddha, you know. When we think about historical Buddha, he is also Sambhogakaya Buddha—derived by—by practice. That is one idea. And we contrasted those to—to the Dharmakaya Buddha.

Another idea is to open Dharmakaya Buddha into Sambhogakaya Buddha, and to contrast with the Nirmanakaya Buddha. So, to analyze—one is to analyze Nirmanakaya Buddha in two: Sambhogakaya Buddha and Dharmakaya Buddha—Sambhogakaya Buddha and Nirmanakaya Buddha. And the other is to analyze Dharmakaya Buddha in two, to contrast with Nirmanakaya Buddha—Nirmanakaya.

And here we have Dharmakaya Buddha, Sambhogakaya Buddha, and Nirmanakaya Buddha. And the other is Nirmanakaya Buddha here, and analyze here two: Sambhogakaya Buddha, Nirmanakaya Buddha. And up there we have Dharmakaya Buddha.

But the more appropriate—I think it—it is more appropriate to analyze Nirmanakaya Buddha in two—Nirmanakaya Buddha and Sambhogakaya Buddha. And Dharmakaya Buddha is up here, he is always up here, as a unconditional one. So, there is no need to discuss about Dharmakaya Buddha, but the important thing is to discuss what is Nirmanakaya Buddha and what is Sambhogakaya Buddha.

If—if I—if you just said—if you have just two idea of Dharmakaya and Nirmanakaya Buddha, it is not [laughs]—this is just philosophy. There is no relations. Nothing to do with our actual life, you know. We are—if you understand Buddhism in that way, that Buddhism is so-called-it natural—naturalism, you know. Whatever you do, that is [laughs], you know, Buddha's activity. So, there is no need to practice zazen [laughs] or to study this kind of teaching.

But, you know, for us, we cannot—we can understand that kind of philosophy, but we cannot satisfied—we—we are not satisfied with that kind of dry philosophy, which has nothing to do with our actual life, where we have various problems.

Even though we are, you know, whatever it is, and whatever we do, our life is based on the truth, so there should not be anything to worry. But, actually we, you know, have problem. Why we have problem? When—only when we reflect on ourselves the Nirmanakaya idea of Sambhogakaya Buddha become important.

When Buddha was, you know, still with us, you know, he was both Nirmanakaya— Nirmanakaya Buddha and Sambhogakaya Buddha. We could accept what he says as a Dharmakaya Buddha. And what he did as a Nirmanakaya Buddha. So, he was Sambhogakaya Buddha. He had both side.

While, you know, he has some quality, he was not just—just—just usual. He was not just our friend[?]. He had some quality. That quality is the acquired quality by practice. Do you understand?

There may be, you know, in our friend, some of them will be very intelligent. Some of them are not so intelligent [laughs]. But if intelligent person is, you know—even though—sometime, even though he is intelligent, you know, he can—he will not be a good friend of you. Or he will not be accepted by, as a good friend or a good person. Or he—people will not sometime respect him, even though he is good, is intelligent. Even though someone is not so intelligent or clever, sometime people may respect, you know, respect him. [Laughs] you know, there is something—some quality in our personality.

So personality, inborn, in—inherited personality and acquired personality. By the effort, human effort to be more human. To be more—human-like, you know. That kind of effort give us some quality, some different quality from the quality you have had before you practice our way. Do you understand?

Even though you practice zazen whole life, stupid person is [laughs] always stupid. He cannot be intelligent man. Aratpero[?]. Do you understand? If you say, if you practice zazen, in two years you will have bright [laughs] you will be a bright, intelligent person, you will be successful in a business, [laughs, laughter], that is not true.

Even though you practice zazen ten years, [laughs] stupid, or while forgetful one is always forgetful like me. It is not possible for me not to forget anything. But what you acquire by practice is some quite different quality. That quality is that quality as a Sambhogakaya Buddha. Quality which will be acquired by practice, by right practice, by right thinking, by right view. By unselfish practice. By unselfish understanding of the world. To see things as it is. To—and to accept things as it is.

To accept “things as it is” means to observe things from two side. Usually, we observe things only from one—one side only. To accept things as it is means to observe things two ways—both, from both side. For us, to observe, to accept things from both side, it's not possible unless we practice, you know, our way. Only when you practice zazen, when you train your activity, you can, you know, see things as it is along both side, without being caught by one-sided viewpoint. That is selflessness.

Even though you are very intelligent, you know, or the more you—he is intelligent, the more he will be caught by his own viewpoint, and he is wise enough to insist his viewpoint, ignoring the other viewpoint. So, that is why, sometime, intelligent one cannot help people so much, while the dull, stupid one can help people a lot. So, this kind of quality—Sambhogakaya Buddha has this kind of a quality. For this reason we put emphasis more Sambhogakaya Buddha.

And Buddhist could—Buddhist find out—found out why Buddha was so great after his death. And the point we should remember is when they were very much—when they missed Buddha, they found out true Buddha. When they found out how miserable they were when he lose—when they lose Buddha, in other words, when they—we—when they cannot satisfied with themselves, and when they need some help, they found out the Sambhogakaya Buddha.

There were, you know, many people—there must be many people who are almost intelligent enough as Buddha, but they missed him—they missed Buddha, and they found out why he was so great. He was not—he is not a hero, religious hero or saint who has some supernatural power. But Buddha has some other quality who can understand how difficult it is for human being to be—to see things as it is, and to have selfless—to have the life of selflessness. He could understand people.

So that kind of quality is something which is possible to acquire only through experience, not by thinking. It is not matter of profound teaching or lofty teaching or beautiful teaching, but the matter of sympathy or compassion, which will be acquired by experience—actual experience of life. That is, you know, Sambhogakaya Buddha, and that is actual meaning Buddha we have.

So this sutra is the sutra of—sutra of Shoho Jisso or things as it is. Our life as it is. And sutra—sutra of—sutra which gives us good example of how we appreciate our life, which is one, which is universal. Universal to every being.

This is structure of the—this sutra. So, this sutra is the sutra for the, you know, people in suffering, and for the people who appreciate suffering as our practice. So, for the people who is suffering, this sutra will be salvation. And for the people who appreciate our life, this sutra will be—will give firm background for the appreciation, or for the joy of life, because just to enjoy our life is not our way. We—we cannot enjoy our life in its true sense without any background. When our life is firmly established, in perfect background, we can enjoy our life, because there—there is no fear of losing.

Time?

Student: Fifteen, twenty minutes yet.

I will continue a little bit more. I want to go further. We—we studied about the sixteen Bodhisattva—Bodhisattvas. They were, you know, this morning someone asked me about those Bodhisattva. Those Bodhisattva, interesting point is those sixteen Bodhisattva—Bodhisattvas: the more, you know, more historical ones—I don't know all of them, but at least some of them, it's already known as a historical character—characters. Bhadrapala, he is—he was the—he looks like the leader of the laymen Bodhisattvas—sixteen, we count sixteen, but there must be many laymen Buddhist for this time. And those are, I think, the most eminent ones, because of the position, because of the wonderful—his wonderful character, Bhadrapala. And it—it is said, that there were six big cities, and those are the most influential people in those city, and Bhadrapala was the leader of those people. And we know who is in what city. Ratnikara[?], Ratnikara, Ratnikara. Ratnikara was—was in Vaishali[?], city of Vaishali. Varunadatta[?] was city of Varanasi. Susarthavaha[?] Susarthavaha was in city of Raja—no, Shravasti. And Chinese rendering of those names suggest, you know, their characters, what kind of people they were. Ratnikara[?] in Chinese rendering, his name is hold[?] treasurer, accumulating treasure Bodhisattva. Or to—to deal with treasure—treasure dealer. So he must be the wealthy Bodhisattva of the Vaishali[?].

And Susarthavaha the Chinese rendering of this Bodhisattva is a leader. He was a leader of—leader of—no, oh—leader of group of merchant. And he had, at that time, as you know, there were many people who go to another city, or another country—some other country and get some merchandise or treasures by a caravan. And he must be the leader of those merchant. And some people say he was the same person who donated [Japanese for Jeta Garden?] a garden for Buddha.

You know, no ???. I told him already—I told about him already, you know. When Sudatta[?], Buddha's disciple wanted give[?] to garden, of which he found out, and when he found out that garden was owned by this—owned by some wealthy leader of the caravan, he asked. He refused, you know, to give it to Buddha. So, he said—and said, “If you pave my land with coin” [laughs] “I will give it to you.” And Sudatta was also a wealthy—wealthy, so he started to pave his land [laughs] with coin. And so the—he said, “Okay, okay, okay!” [laughs] “I'll give it to Buddha” [laughs]. That was—it looks like he—this Bodhisattva is the same person as Susarthavaha.

Some of those—some of the sixteen named Bodhisattva appears in some other parts or some other chapter of this sutra, and some doesn't. But most of them appears I guess.

And?

Student: Yeah, five minutes over.

Oh, Do you have some question? One question. Hai.

Q: Roshi, what does Vairocana mean?

Hmm.

Q: Does Vairocana refer to?

Vairocana? Vairocana means. Vairocana is Dharmakaya Buddha. And it—it is characterize—characterized by light—the sun—light, which is universal.

When we say light, light has no form, but it is not symbol of—it is personified—Vairocana is personified Buddha of the law or dharma or unconditional or absolute being[?] —Vairocana. So, he is also, you know, Sambhogakaya and Dharmakaya. As we observe him, you know, like as our teacher, as our Buddha is Sambhogakaya.

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Source: digital audio archive from DC. Problem set audio work by Angus Atwell. Transcribed March 2012 by Judy Gilbert. Work in progress. Further preparation to post by DC. Verbatim version based on Engage Wisdom audio by Peter Ford 2/2025.

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File name: 68-10-00-K: Lotus Sutra, Lecture No. II-12 (Verbatim) speed and level towrd end - ty at 51:00? Changed "giggles" to "laughs" 1-5-2017, dc.

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