our practice and our everyday activity
Shunryu Suzuki Transcript
Saturday, August 30, 1969
Tassajara
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Tonight, I want to discuss with you about our practice and our everyday life—our everyday activity. Our everyday life in term of good and bad. And how you feel about your life, if zazen practice help your everyday life or not. This kind of thing will be discussed this evening. Of course, we Buddhist believe in our innate complete nature. And when we realize our nature, or when we practice zazen, it is possible for us to—to understand what is our true nature, not in term of good or bad nature.
When we realize our nature, we say we are—according to Dogen-zenji—we are inmo[?], inmo means, inmo means yǐnmó Chinese. And it means that it is a kind of question. It is a kind of interrogative word, like what or how, and—and it also means suchness or thusness . It has two meaning. When we are just as we are, and when we find that we are just as we are, it means that when we practice zazen and stop thinking and stop our feeling of pain or disturbance by distraction, then that is suchness, you know. And when we experience this suchness, then even the pain in your legs is also suchness. And it is another way of our experiencing our true nature.
So, why we—why Dogen-zenji used this word—whatever the experience may be, when we realize our—when we experience our true nature, then whatever the experience may be, that is another way of experiencing suchness. So not only zazen practice, but also, or in this case, the experience of suchness. So, it is not just zazen practice, but also whatever we do, that is the experience of—real experience of our true nature. And so, whatever, you know, in this case, we do not point out some special experience, but that is why we use interrogative words, whatever it is, or what is it. Or how is it. What kind of experience did you have? Or how was the experience? you know. So, that how can be many things—many different things, and whatever the experience may be that is various—those are various way of experience of suchness or our true nature. In this way, we understand our everyday life. And in this realm, if there—if you have some question, I want you to ask me. Hai.
Student: When we are counting our breath in zazen, a certain state of mind is created. During our everyday life, should we concentrate on maintaining that state of mind or should we continue counting our breaths?
SR: No, in everyday life there may be, you know, in everyday life sometime you can count your breathing, or you can be concentrated on what you do, or even you can count your breathing, you know. But when you are—you are doing something by using your thinking mind, you know, you cannot do that. So, at that time, you should be concentrated on what you do or what you think. Whatever it is, you know, you should be concentrated on what you do. That is, you know, there is also some difference between the—the concentration of a usual person and the concentration of a Zen student. Usually, the concentration is just concentration, that's all. You know, it does not mean so much. But for us, you know, that concentration, it's more flexible, you know. That is why Dogen-zenji used two words, you know, the words which means this is it and the—the other—the other sound[?] interrogative words. This is it, but it can be many things, you know. You can substitute it for some—some other experience, or some other activity. Now, when you eat you should be concentrated on eating. And when you—even in concentration you will—if someone ask you to come or, you know, ask—if—someone ask you to help, you know, to help him, then you can easily stop your practice and concentration on some particular thing, and you—you can concentrate on some other things quite easily, and it is more flexible. That is the meaning. That is why we say, "What?"
So, you know, just to concentrated on one thing is not our way. The concentration should be one of the many ways of concentration, and each activity, each practice, should include everything. So, he says, "If your practice does not include everything, that is not true practice." When your practice include everything; whole universe, maybe, then that is our practice. Whatever the practice may be, you know, if the practice include whole universe, you know, that is only one practice. Name is different, but actually, it is, one practice. For Zen student—Zen student understand concentration in—in this way. But for unusual people to be concentrated on one thing, is—does not—just concentration. And that is his own practice, and it does not include some other's practice, or some other practice of his own, some other practice of him. Do you understand? Hai.
Student: Is all practice of suchness of equal value? For example, if you experience suchness with an attitude of gratitude, is that more valuable than if you don't?
SR: If you don't, you know, your life will be—will be life of piece by piece, you know. There's no conformity[?], and there will not be no universality, and your—your mind will not be in—your mind will be always shaky.
Student: You mean, if we practice suchness, but with—without an attitude of gratitude, then this is the way it will be?
SR: Gratitude, yeah, maybe so. Gratitude of including everything. Gratitude of imperturbability. Gratitude of perfect composure. Gratitude of practicing zazen with Buddha. Buddha, you know, Buddha and you—your practice include Buddha's practice. And Buddha's practice is your practice. So, it may be a great joy, more than joy.
Mark[?], do you have some other question?
Student: I don't understand effortless effort. When I do effort, [laughs] I have to use a lot of effort. Would—is there something, like counting your breaths, that will make that possible? While not doing zazen, while in ordinary life.
SR: In ordinary life? In zazen counting breathing use a lot, but in ordinary life I don't think it will help so much. Actually, you cannot count when you do some other things.
Student: Is there something we can do, to make the effort effortless?
SR: Effortless—you know, what I’m saying is to—to be completely involved in what you do; to become one with what you do. Not in dualistic sense. What, you know, you experience is not yours. And you vanish into the experience, you know, that which existed something. Objective and subjective, no, no—no subjectivity or objectivity, but that which existed—the act or practice you do at that time. You—one of the problem in—in your zazen is pain [laughs] in your legs, but the pain is, you know, very helpful, you know, if you appreciate fully what is pain. It is best way to forget about yourself and—pain mostly stronger than the idea of self. If you determined to, you know, endure the pain. It continuous, you know [laughs], and your practice will naturally continue [laughs]. Don't you think so? And it is, you know, as long as you feel, you know, you have legs here. “I have legs here which is painful,” then it is impossible to [laughs] endure the pain. When it is very painful, the only way is to shut your eyes [laughs] and try to become one with pain. That is only one way to endure the pain. So, when you completely—you become with pain and it is easy, you know, to become pain. You think it is difficult but, actually, it is not so. It is much easier to become with pain than become with something else. And because it is so strong and so actual, [laughs] so you cannot escape from it. If you tried to move it, you know, that is another matter. But if you determined not to move and endure the pain, the only way is to, you know, to give up my legs or some other’s legs. Or, to give up the intention to cut off your legs [laughs]. Keep it on your body and become one with it, with your whole body and mind, you should endure the pain. Only way is to forget yourself and to become one with pain.
Student: If one does that—I don’t—it sounds funny but if one does that, so—so what?
SR: Hmm? So what?
Student: Yeah.
SR: You will experience the oneness of you and pain and—that is very important in our practice. Because we cannot do that, we have a various problem. The, you know, problem is, “What is the cause of problem.” The—the cause of the problem is, maybe, so-called it ignorance. What is ignorance? Ignorance is not to know that we have no self. So, that is selflessness—actual experience of selflessness and actual experience of to become one with all being. Then you have no choice, you know?
Student: But is it—is it better to become one with something that's hard on one hit of ten[?], than on one, I think, easier, like, project nipping[?]? [Laughter].
SR: To become one with eating? You—you think you become one with eating, but actually, you are not! No, when you like something, you know, you would be easily fooled by something. If something is which you don’t like at all [laughs], you cannot be fooled by it. Until you become completely with—one with it, you know, you cannot have composure in it. And, you—you know, I know someone who has this experience, fully, completely, and who forget—forgot his body completely. You know, all of sudden, all the pain stopped and she lost her weight, you know. She didn't know who she was, and she forgot the pain, also. Because when there's only pain, that is not pain anymore. Because you are here, you know, and pain is here: that is pain. There's no difference between pain or, you know, pain or comfort. It is, you know, an actual experience you may have if you determined to do it. So, you know, that question like, "So what?" [laughs] will vanish also. “This is wonderful,” you know. This is a way how to become, or how to accomplish our practice. How to obtain oneness, which says, “Actually, you know, you can do it.” Hai.
Student: As that practice continues, I find things that I used to feel and experience, I don't feel and experience with the intensity—emotional intensity that I used to...
SR: Uh-huh.
Student: ...and it looks like this is a direction[?] possibly, of—of losing maybe some emotional coloring and...
SR: Mm-hmm.
Student: ...there are times when I don't experience, at all and that's—it's rather frightening.
SR: Yeah.
Student: And—I—I've been wondering whether this is just a Western idea, we have a concept that to experience fully...
SR: Mm-hmm.
Student: ...is good.
SR: Mm-hmm.
Student: And if you're not feeling it and you have a minimum kind of, almost a blankness...
SR: Mm-hmm.
Student: ...and, yet, I—I do realize I see you—it seems there are things look a little more clearly than when I was emotionally involved in it.
SR: Yeah, yeah.
Student: Is this or one of the Western difficulty, do you think, than—than you would as a Japanese—or a Chinese—oriental—cultural conditioning or did you…?
SR: I don't think so, actually. It is true, you know, deep experience which—which is beyond, you know, cultural background. Pain is, you know, pain for us—same. Your pain—I don't think there's a difference between your pain and my pain.
Student: But, did you—do you recognize the feeling of fear, of losing...
SR: I hear many people say, you know, when you—when he experience blankness of everything, you know, or experience to sit at the top of the mountain, you know, where he command various sight—various view of the world, you know, he—he is quite lonely. Lonesome it—it is a kind of fear.
For us too—Dogen-zenji also described this kind of sorrow or, you know, yeah, sorrow. Sorrow of maybe, sorrow of enlightenment, you may say. Sorrow—sorrow of some enlightened person, or umoni[?] he says umoni such a person. Such a person isn’t, you know, maybe everyone, but everyone can be such a person. But, when he become really such a person, who felt this—who have this experience, will be some sorrow which is different from that usual sorrow. But, you know, bottomless sorrow.
But here, also, you know—and—and he says—he said, sorrow itself—sorrow itself is actual experience of our—our true nature. So, that—that sorrow is different from usual sorrow, when we miss someone. Or when we are going to die or something. It is completely—it—it is not kind of—it is not the same kind, but it is actually a kind of, you know, modesty[?].
[Student: The tape is being turned over.]
I think this kind of feeling—Buddhist has this kind of feeling. That is why he is you know, always humorous [laughs]. Like some chameleon [laughs], but he, himself is not so happy. He can make—he can make people, you know, in complete laughter, you know, [laughs]. When he’s—his personal life is—is not like that. But he’s, anyway, he's happy and he's—his mind is almost pure, always open, and wide, and deep, and common, very common, very plain. He can be very fancy sometime.
Excuse me, do you have some other question?
Student: Roshi, sometimes, I get very discouraged about my practice and my life and lose my energy and—and my determination and I just feel bad. And I feel bad in my body and in my mind. How should I approach this kind of thing?
SR: First of all, you know, in your practice, you know, you should experience this kind of experience. That is, you know, the shortest cut [laughter]. You cannot be always, you know—you cannot be always in such a state as you have in your practice. But, if you have—if you experience this kind of experience even for 10 minutes, or 5 minutes, you know, you will have—you will have some hope. You will know the direction, which way to go. And then, you know, whatever happen, that is the chance to—to—to go back, to actual practice.
Dogen-zenji, you know, described this kind of thing very well. He taught the story of the king of the highest heaven of desire world. The sixth heaven is the highest realm of the desire world, and he was the king of the sixth—sixth realm. And he was very much proud of his magic power, so he wanted to disturb Buddha's disciple by his magic power. But he thought, maybe, "What will be the best way?" He—but at—at last he decided to disturb him by some—in disguise of some beautiful lady, and to give him something good. So, she went—he went in disguise of beautiful lady, to his disciple, and he presented beautiful—what do you call, necklace? [Laughs] necklace. For the Buddhist disciple it's not so good present, maybe. But—but the Buddha disciple said, "I don't want such—such a beautiful thing, but, anyway, I'll receive it. Instead I'll present you something good, too." And he offered something like how I am dead1 [laughs]. So, the king of the sixth world—sixth world had to—had to leave and later he saw what—he saw the dead which was given to—to him. And that was while they made up in a nasty human battle [laughs]. And—snake, dead snake, dead human body and dead dog made of three things and he was hanging. But—he found it very difficult to—to get out of it. As he was the king of the sixth heaven-world, he—he cannot find anyone powerful enough to help him. So, he had to go to ??? —form—someone who is ruling the form world which is about the sixth world. And he asked Brahma to get rid of it. But that Brahma said, “I cannot do that. Maybe you better go to the disciple of Buddha, especially if you go to Mahamaudgalyayana[?], he will get rid of.” But, he was very reluctant to go to Buddha's disciple again. But he had to, so he went to him and asked. And he helped—the disciple helped and he could get rid of the lei[?]. And at that time ???, and Buddha's disciple Mahamaudgalyayana[?] gave him a poem and it said, "Who—someone who fell, you know, on the ground, should stand up by the ground. Someone who fell, you know, who stumbled, by the ground, then there must be some stone or something. Those who stumble at the stone and fell on the stone, should stand up by the stone like this. And for him there’s no reason to seek or some other hate[?]. It means that you, you know, made a mistake with Buddha disciple, so you should you go to the Buddha disciple and you should stand up there by—by help of Buddha.
It means that, you know, if you make some mistake or whatever it is, if you happen to do something good or bad, if it is bad—if it is good it will be a great help, and even though it is mistake or it is some difficulty, but when you determine try to stand up and when you stand up, you know, and there's no other place for you to stand up, the place you make mistake will be the place you find out the way to stand up. So, whatever you—experience you have that is, you know, place where you should practice our way. And that practice is to stand up by—to stand up by is to become one with it, and to be free from it, and to accept it. And to find complete composure in it.
Do you have some—some more question?
[Archivist: The tape was turned here. There’s a gap in the original here of about five spaces on the scale, on the tape scale, five—five units, and then the question and answer begins.]
Student: [Dogen said that,] "You should continue to practice zazen all of your life..."
SR: Uh-huh.
Student: "...that you should not stop."
SR: Uh-huh.
Student: Suppose you get to a point where whether you are sitting or doing some other activity, you're doing everything the same way.
SR: Yeah. Same way.
Student: Yeah.
SR: Same way, but way you do may be different, you know. But the point is the way. Because it is the same, we—he says, that is it—this is it. And the way we practice the—is not always same, you know, that form of practice may be different, each time you practice, strictly speaking. So, it must be what or how.
Student: Uh-huh, although the zazen looks the same, it is always different?
SR: Although it looks very different, it is same [laughs, laughter].
Student: Then if it is the same, why do zazen?
SR: ???, you know, you cannot have that kind of experience in some other practice. You would be easily fooled by something, you know. If you, you know, if you practice zazen, even though you practice zazen you find it's pretty difficult even to count [laughs] breathing, you know, that is because you are always tend to be fooled by something. Why you give up counting is, “Oh, this is useless” [laughs]. You know, that is a kind of way you—you are fooling yourself. It is making you—should count—anyway you should count. You shouldn’t say this is good or bad.
Student: Roshi, all of us have during this practice experienced from time to time as tiredness, almost exhaustion, through we’re not getting enough sleep, and your mental state is always one of highly to resist your fatigue. Is that part of the practice or part of the training to work with that tiredness? Or is it something that should eventually go away, so we can keep the schedule and not have that fatigue?
SR: Well, you know, if you, I think, you know, our schedule is made in that way, with we are a little bit want of sleep, you know. And we don't eat not much strong food, you know, and, you know, we are under some orders want of something. That is easier to practice our way rather than to have enough sleep and enough food, and—sufficient ???.
Student: So, and that tiredness becomes part of—is part of the practice...
SR: Yeah.
Student: ...something that will always be with us...
SR: Yes, yes. A part of practice [laughter]. And, that will help, you know. Especially… [laughter]. If you are not, you know, tired, you may know what will happen to you [laughs]. Because you are a little bit tired, you know, you can practice zazen. Because you have not much, you know, enjoyment in monastic life, you can sit. If you have various enjoyment in monastic life [laughs], you will never sit. [Laughter].
Student: If I'm too tired in the morning I can count my breath maybe to three or four [laughter], and then I fall asleep and I start over.
SR: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Student: And sometimes I can arrange my sleeping schedule so I can count to ten, or maybe even seven. Should I push myself to the point where it is hard to count? [Laughter]. Or should I...
SR: Yeah.
Student: ...maybe get a little more sleep until I can count to ten? [Laughter].
SR: Yeah, you—anyway, you have to do your best, you know. [Laughter].
Student: Sometimes there's choice...
SR: No, no choice. [Laughter]. The choice is ???, you know, anyways...
Student: Is what?
SR: In—anyway, our practice. [Laughter].
Student: If it seems to become harder to make choices, I would think it would become easier if you had good practice.
SR: To, you know, which?
Student: Well, choices seem to come harder at Tassajara to me than they do down there.
SR: Uh-huh. [Laughter]. Yeah, we change our schedule so many times [laughs, laughter], so that we can practice our way, you know. I don't know how many times we changed our schedule; usually, “This is too much. Or this is not enough.” It is a matter of ??? or changing whether we should get up twenty minutes earlier or whether we sleep more. That kind thing is very—looks like very small things, but not so—very important. [Laughs] one more question, please.
Student: Roshi, what should we do when we can't stay awake in zazen?
SR: Stay away?
Student: When we can't stay awake.
SR: From what?
Student: When we can't count beyond three, how can we encourage ourselves? Since we have to keep to the schedule? [Laughter].
SR: Don't ask me! [Laughter]. If I, you know, say "yes" or "no," you know, it will be—you would be entrapped by my words, you know. So I—I don't want to say "yes" or "no" for that question. It is better for us, for me and for you to practice our way. Thank you very much.
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1 maybe a garland of corpses
Source: 69-08-30-II-t.mp3 digital audio archive from DC. Problem set. Thanks to audio work by Angus Atwell, transcribed.
Transcribed by CM 09/05/12-09/10/12. Audio quality fair, largely audible and fair distance from speakers. Audio grade generally C, with probably something around 70% audible, but with some worrisome fluctuation. Some crickets but not many which muffle speech or affect sound being picked up. Unfortunately, a large enough amount of the audio is unclear, causing inconclusive meaning. Tape cuts twice: once it resumes (and is "relooped"), but the second time an unknown period has passed, possibly even a different lecture. Verbatim version based on Engage Wisdom audio by Peter Ford 6/2025.
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69-08-30N:
our practice and our everyday activity
(Verbatim)
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