Lotus Sūtra No. I-5

Shunryu Suzuki Transcript

February 1968
Zen Mountain Center

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Manjusri again—in—for the answer to the Maitreya, telling him what—telling them what he had seen. And he is so sure that the Buddha will tell them the Lotus Sutra.

"And so, Agita, having once seen a similar foretoken of the Lord, I infer from a similar ray being emitted just now, that the Lord—Lord is about to expound the Dharmaparyaya—Dharmaparyaya called the Lotus of the True Law."

"And on that occasion, in order to treat the subject more copiously, Manjusri, the prince royal, uttered the following stanzas:"

Number—stanza number 57: “I remember a past period, inconceivable, illimited kalpas ago, when the highest of the being—highest of beings, the Jina of the name of Kandrasuryapradipa, was in existence.”

Number 58. “He preached the true law, he, the leader of the creatures; he educated an infinite number of kotis of being, and roused inconceivably many Bodhisattvas to acquire supreme Buddha knowledge.”

Number 59. “And the eight son born to him, the leader, when he was prince royal, no sooner saw that the great sage had embraced ascetic life, than they resigned worldly pleasure and became monks.”

All of them, all of his eight sons resigned the worldly pleasure and become monks.

And, next 60. “And the Lord of the world proclaimed the law, and revealed to thousands of kotis of living beings the Sutra, the development, which by name is called 'the excellent Exposition of Infinity.'”

Now 61. “Immediately after delivering his speech, the leader crossed his legs and entered upon the meditation of 'excellent Exposition of Infinite.' There on his seat of the law the eminent seer continued absorbed in meditation."

He absorbed in meditation like the Shakyamuni Buddha is doing.

62, “And there fell a celestial rain of Mandaravas—Mandaravas, while the drums of heaven resounding—and resounded without being struck; the gods and elves—elves in the sky paid honor to the highest men.”

The 63. “And simultaneously all the fields of Buddha began trembling. A wonder it was, a great prodigy. Then the chief emitted from between his brows one extremely beautiful ray,”

64. “Which moving to the eastern quarter glittered, illuminating the world all over the extent of eighteen thousand fields. It manifested the vanishing and appear—appearing of the being.

Number 65. “Some of the field then seemed jeweled, others showed the hue of lapis lazuli, all splendid, extremely beautiful, owing to the radiance of the ray from the leader.”

66. “Gods and men, as well as Nagas, goblins, Gandharvas, nymphs, Kinnaras, and those occupied with serving the Sugata became visible in the sphere and paid their devotion.”

67. “The Buddha also, those self-born being, appeared of their own accord, resembling golden columns; like unto golden disk, they revealed the law in the midst of the assembly.”

68. “The disciples, indeed, are not to be counted: the disciple of Sugatas are numberless. Yet the lustre of the ray renders them all visible in every field.”

69. “Energetic, without breach or flaw in their course—in their course, similar to gem and jewel, the son of the leaders of the men are visible in the mountain caves where they are dwelling.”

60 [70]. “Numerous Bodhisattva, like the sand of the Ganges, who are spending all their wealth in giving alms, who have the strength of patience, are devoted to contemplation and wise, become all of them visible by that ray.”

61 [71]. “Immovable, unshaken, firm in patience, devoted to contemplation, and absorbed in meditation are seen the true son of the Sugatas while they are striving for supreme enlightenment by dint of meditation.”

72. “They preached the law in many sphere, and point to the true, quiet spotless state they know—quiet spotless state they know. Such is the effect produced by the power of the Sugata.”

73. “And all the four classes of hearers on seeing the power of the mighty Kandra—Kandrarkadipa were filled with joy and asked one another: How is this?”

And 74. “And soon afterwards, the Leader of the world, worshipped by—worshipped by men, gods, and goblins, rose from the meditation, he addressed his son Varaprabha, the wise Bodhisattva and preacher of the law:” And he started—he aroused from meditation.

Now 65 [75]. “'Thou art wise, the eyes and refuge—thou art wise, the eyes and refuge of the world; thou art a trustworthy keeper of my law, and canst bear witness as the treasure of laws which I am to lay bare to the weal of living beings.'”

76. “Then, after rousing, stimulating, praising and lauding many Bodhisattvas, did the Jina proclaim the supreme laws during fully sixty intermediate kalpas.”

Now Kandrasurya started to give the Lotus Sutra.

“And whatever excellent—and whatever excellent supreme law was proclaimed by the Lord of the world while continuing sitting on the very same seat, was kept in memory by Baraprabha, the son of Jina, the preacher of the law.”

He was the one who told this Lotus Sutra.

And 78. “And after Jina and Leader had manifested the supreme law and stimulated the numerous crowd, he spoke, that day, towards the world including the gods as follows:

“'I have manifested the rule of the law; I have shown the nature of the law; now, O monks, it is the time of my Nirvana; this very night, in the middle watch.”

“'Be zealous and strong in—be zealous and strong in persuasion; apply yourselves to my lessons; for the Jinas, the great seers, are but rarely met with the lapse of—of myriads of kotis of Aeons.'”

81. “The many sons of Buddha—many sons of Buddha were struck with grief and filled with extreme sorrow when they heard of the voice of the highest of men announcing that his Nirvana was near at hand.”

“To comfort inconceivably many kotis of living beings the king of the kings said: ‘Be not afraid, O monks; after my Nirvana there shall be another Buddha.’”

“'The wise Bodhisattva Srigarbha, after finishing his course in faultless knowledge, and reach highest, supreme enlightenment, and become a Jina under the name of Vimalagranetra—Vimalagranetra.'

“That very night, in the middle watch, he met complete extinction, like a lamp when the cause (of its burning) is exhausted. His relics were distributed, and one of Stupas there was an infinite—excuse me—and of his Stupas there was an infinite number of myriads of kotis.”

And there is, you know, same story in China. You know, when a Zen Master passed away. The Emperor asked him, you know, “What should we do about this—about the famous Zen master, Nangyo Ejo already? Ninety[?] years ???. Is there anything to help you? No[?]. “What do you want me to do?” the Emperor asked Nangyo Ejo, when Nangyo Ejo visited. To ??? among where else to bury him. The emperor asked him, what do you—in reality to help him. And Ejo said, "If you build me a mound for my relics, it is enough." "How—then how should I build it?" the Emperor asked. Ejo said, "My disciple ??? will know it well, so ask—ask him." So, after he passed away, the Emperor asked his disciple what is ??? how to make stupa. And he said, "Make just a mound." ??? How big[?] ??? he said ??? disciple said. East by the Yangtze River [laughs] and to—to the west side of the Yangtze River [laughs]. And Emperor couldn't understand this is going to be huge[?]. It may cover whole his country! [Laughs, laughter.] So, he couldn't answer, you know. He couldn't say yes. So, he was waiting[?], you know, for ??? continue. A good would in fact[?]. All of ??? mound ??? a fact[?]. All ???. ??? he couldn’t understand what he meant. His true body covers everything, you know. He is one with everything, so even though he dies, there is no difference. ??? continue[?]. “That very—that very night, in middle watch, he met complete extinction, like a lamp when the cause of burning is exhausted. His relics were distributed, and of his Stupas there was an infinite number of myriads of kotis.”

"The monks and nuns at the time being, who strove after supreme, highest enlightenment, numerous and sand of—as sand of Ganges, applied themselves to the commandment of Sugata."

The Lotus Sutra, you know, supposed to be like this, you know. It is—it should not be understood literally, you know. Invented[?] stories, as is described in this section[?]. What it describes is how things exist, not only such things[?] which is described in Lotus Sutra including animate and inanimate beings, or human and non-human—non-human beings. Or human beings the lowest to being to the highest being of Buddha. The lowest being may be six worlds. And we have above the six, you know, worlds. You know the six worlds? First there is we human being and celestial—among the six worlds, the celestial world is highest, next one is the human world, and hell is lower[?] and hungry ghost. Hungry ghost world would be the lowest. And above the six worlds, ahead[?] of them, there will be sravakas— sravakas, pratyekas, bodhisattva, and Buddha. Buddha is the highest. It includes so all of those beings. By name of those beings is called—we describe the reality in the names of those beings, but that is not enough. Maybe we should understand in that way. So, if so—if so, the Lotus Sutra only—Lotus Sutra is—is not only valuable is highest sutra. All the sutra is very valuable. And sutra may be—original sutra—and there may be undescribed sutras—not yet described by anyone. There are[?]—there should be various sutras.

So, as Dogen Zenji said, even the sound of the—the bell could be[?] and the color of the mountain is bodhisattvas—your friend teach[?]. Actually, he means Lotus Sutra. So, all what we see[?] should be the Lotus Sutra. In this way we should understand Lotus Sutra. That is how we Zen Buddhists understand Lotus Sutra. So, Zen Buddhism, especially Dogen's Zen, actually arose from maybe Tendai teaching—Tendai teaching like this[?]. And, but his teaching—but difference between Tendai and Zen is on Nichiren[?]. The other school, they treat this sutra—king—king of the kings— highest sutra—the most important sutra. But we do not treat this sutra highest sutra. We think this is one of the important sutras. All the sutras is important. When we understand everything, every phenomena, everything is important for us. This is the difference between our understanding of Lotus Sutra and other schools— understanding of other schools. And, according to Dogen, [possibly a gap in the tape here] whether or not, you know, we attain enlightenment, we are actually speak—I mean fluently speaking about the truth.

Now, here, you know, it says, daiichigi. What do you mean by daiichigi? The First Principle—the first principle. The first Principle is the reality, the absolute truth, which cannot be conveyed in term of good or bad, supreme or common. The first principle. The first principle—when we say the first principle, that principle is the principle everything revealed—through everything revealing itself and preventing speaking about the First Principle—everything speaking about. So, in this way he understand enlightenment. But it does not mean that we—there is no need to attain enlightenment. If you understand in that way, you know, it is already Second Principle, not First Principle. If it is necessary or—if it is necessary or not necessary, you know, this is the Second Principle. So, if it is necessary to say something, you must say, "Sometime necessary, sometime not necessary" [laughs]. Whatever you say, that is right [laughs, laughter]. That is more Dogen Zenji's understanding.

The other day, in fireplace room, Govinda—Lama Govinda talked about the Shingon canon—so called it "Tantric" canons. That physical outlook[?]—[laughs] original Tantric observances[?] and exotic teaching of Buddhism. Why we say exotic mean—is—it is, you know, the true teaching is beyond understanding. Exotic means that you can't see it, you know or…

Student, Richard Baker?: Esoteric?

Esoteric, excuse me, esoteric. Esoteric means, you know, that you can’t see or hear. That is esoteric. And when you cannot see it or understand it, you may say that is mysticism or mystic. But that is not true understanding. There may be two thing—two idea, something in—something you cannot understanding. One is, you know, mystic—mystic idea something mystic—something because you—just because you cannot see, or you cannot understand it. But there is another thing which you cannot understand. It is too obvious. The reality is too real to speak about. You know, we say, "If you want to explain what is water, you know, give it water to him, [laughs]. Don't speak about it." Even though you speak about it, you know, it is not possible to understand what is water. When you drink it, you will understand what is water. That kind of phenomena—true experience, or reality, is not possible to talk about. In this sense, it is—there is esoteric teaching.

And Tantric Buddhism put emphasis on this point. So, they—and their basic scripture—sutra is Diamond Sutra, which was told by Buddha, but not historical Buddha. He did not tell it— the sutra by his mouth. He told that—not for the audience—not for someone, but for himself.

Student: Excuse me. That was the Diamond Sutra?

Hmm?

Student: The Diamond Sutra?

Dianichi—Diani Sutra.

Student: Oh.

Yeah, the fundamental sutra for Shingon school.

Student: Isn’t there no English name for this?

Ah, maybe. There—there must be. Dianichi, you know, great son. I will find out the English name. Not English name, but Sanskrit name. The fundamental sutra for Shingon school.

It mean that we should not read that scripture by our mind. That is why they, you know, they have—they explain the sutra in various mudras, you know. Very similar to Zen, and—but Zen does not depend on any sutra, because everything is sutra [laughs]. This is all—we do not depend on any sutra at all. But Shingon school depend on—choose one scripture. And they say this sutra was told by Bodhisattva Dainichi [Mahavairocana tathagata].

We say kenzoku[?], kenzoku means "like his hand or legs or his ears". He told it to himself, it means. Kenzoku—we may want Sanskrit word for that too, kenzoku. Kenzoku means "his name", actually. But when they say it’s Dainichi Nyorai’s name, it means Dainichi—Dainichi Nyorai’s mandala. Whole form mandala is—whole mandala of Dainichi Nyorai is his body. And there are many, you know, buddhas in mandala. All the buddhas in that mandala is a part of his body. And he’s speaking—Dainichi Nyorai speaking—telling the truth to himself, to those buddhas in mandala, which is—and they are a part of himself. So, it is not—he is not telling some special teaching for anyone else. Do you understand? It is like universe is telling truth to universe [laughs]. You know, all cosmic—whole cosmic being telling truth to the cosmic being. So, whatever going in the cosmic scale—in the cosmos is the teaching itself. So, if—when we understand in this way, their teaching is very similar—very close to Zen.

So, in Shobogenzo we have fascicle of Hokke Ten Hokke, it means "Turning Lotus Sutra." And this title of the fascicle came from the Sixth Patriarch, you know, ???. I think you know that. The Sixth Patriarch once giving sermon to people, a bold—a bold disciple, a very alert[?] fellow asked him—I—appeared in front of him. But he did not, you know, he failed to lower his head to the floor, you know. His bow was like this [laughs]. He couldn’t bow to the floor. So, the Sixth Patriarch said, "Why are you so arrogant?”

Student: Pardon?

Another Student: Arrogant sounding[?].

Arrogant—arrogant [laughs].

Student: That’s okay. [Laughter.]

Why is student arousing[?] that way [laughs, laughter] when the Sixth Patriarch said. [Laughter]

The boy said, "I am very sorry."

"If you say so, it—it is alright. But since you failed to lower your head to the floor, you have something—you must have something in your mind here. But what do you have in your mind?"

And he said, “Lotus Sutra” [laughs]. The boy said, "Lotus Sutra. I read—I am reading Lotus Sutra every day, and I have—I must have read it for maybe thousands of times."

"Even though you read—you are reading Lotus Sutra, you don't understand what does it mean," the Sixth Patriarch said. And the Sixth Patriarch said—

And "What is the true meaning of the Lotus Sutra?" the boy asked him. “What hold[?] us?” asked him.
And he said, "I will explain to you, but I cannot read it.” So [laughs] exactly like me—true[?]. “Please read it to me. I will explain about it."

So, he started to read there[?]—start to read it.

And the Sixth Patriarch said, "If—if your mind is deluded, you will be turned by Sutra, you know. If you are—if you are—if you are enlightened, you will turn the Lotus Sutra."

And Dogen Zenji, referred to this story, and he—he says, you know, to be turned by Lotus Sutra, or, you know, to turn the Lotus Sutra, or to be deluded or to be enlightened, is also the First Principle, Lotus Sutra itself. There’s no difference [laughs]. That is Dogen Zenji's understanding. What the—what the—the Sixth Patriarch meant is not different from Dogen Zenji's understanding, but Dogen Zenji’s—Dogen Zenji make it more clear what the Sixth Patriarch—the Sixth Patriarch said. To turn the Lotus Sutra, you know, to be turned Lotus Sutra means, you know, to—to read Lotus Sutra literally, or intellectual or dualistic way: "I read the Lotus Sutra." To be—to turns means, you know, the Lotus Sutra turns Lotus Sutra, like Shingon’s canon. Dainichi Bodhisattva or Tathagata Dainichi giving the teaching to himself, you know. That is how we turn—how we turn the Lotus Sutra.

So, there is no difference. If you are enlightened, you are one with whole universe, and whole universe telling truth to the whole universe, to everything, or everything reveal. The whole universe revealing itself through every being. It means that the whole universe telling truth of whole universe. That what is going is the activity of big, One Being, which is called Buddha. In this way, we should understand Lotus Sutra as a Zen Buddhist.

Thank you.

Student Richard Baker[?]: You have about 10 minutes more.

Um hmm.

Student: And fortunately you have an opportunity[?] as long as you want, Roshi.

[Laughs, laughter.] You change, you change your policy. [Laughs, laughter] all right. [Laughter.]

So our—in short, I—I must give a kind of conclusion to the—to this lecture. In short, you know—when we—if we talk— explain in this way, Buddhism or Zen Buddhism is very, very—maybe true or—what we are talking of—discussing is too big, you know, and nothing to do with our everyday life, you know, if whatever we are doing, that is a part of the great activity. So, it—this is not just our understanding. Our understanding, we say, "When you talk about the greatness of—or greatness of the teaching, it will be as great as universe. But when we talk about it in small scale, it will be as small as—we say it will penetrate in the smallest particle of being imaginable."

That is why, you know, our way is very in—maybe too—you may say complicated, but not complicated, but too—too careful and too particular, you may say. "Don't put something in—in that way. Or you should think—you know, you should put something which is put higher place, higher place; something which you should put lower place, you should lower place. Don't mix up." In this way, our way is very careful [laughs]. So, when—our teaching is limitless in both way, you know. Our teaching is very—in great scale, and our teaching is at the same time, very particular, small scale. This is the nature of our world, you know.

The other day I—as you know, I like stone very much really, but especially big one [laughter, laughs]. Someone, you know, came to a sand—sand with a magnifying glass [student helps with pronunciation, repeats, laughs] and [said], "Look at those stones." [Laughs, laughter.] So, I saw it—saw them— saw the sand one by one. But to my great astonishment, those small stones were exactly the same as big ones! [Laughs, laughter.] And as interesting as big ones, the shape is different, and some—some of the sand is very good shape, you know. You can make a beautiful garden [laughter] with that stone. [Laughs] I was very much amazed. And I thought, this is how, you know, the universe is—consist of, and how everything is going. So, if you cannot accomplish something great, you know, you—you can work on very small thing, in very small scale, and meaning of it not different—not different at all if serious[?] work[?]. This is our nature of practice and teaching.

So those teaching are not the teaching started by Buddha, you know. Before Buddha there must be—there must have been many and many Buddhas, limitlessly numerous Buddhas. There must be. There must have been. In this way we understand, so in this way this sutra is described the reality.

Thank you very much.
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Checked, transcribed, and edited by Brian Fikes.
Old file name 68-02-LS.5
Prepared for digital archive by DC 9-12.
Originally edited by Brian Fikes. Verbatim version created by Peter Ford Nov. 2024 based on Engage Wisdom audio.


File name: 68-02-00-E: Lotus Sūtra No. I-5 (Verbatim)

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